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How would you respond? 2 years 8 months ago #12571

  • Rodin
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Here is a typical Pauline statement that I came across with my brief responses. I thought you may find it interesting. Feel free to add anything here...
“…reckon the patience of our Master as deliverance, as also our beloved brother Sha’ul/Paul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given to him, as also in all his letters, speaking in them concerning these matters, in which some are hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the other Scriptures. You, then, beloved ones, being forewarned, watch, lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with THE DELUSION OF THE LAWLESS, but grow in the favour and knowledge of our Master and Saviour Yahushua Messiah. To Him be the esteem both now and to a day that abides. Amĕin.” (2 Peter/Kefa - Bet 3:15-18)

Brother Sha’ul, “…we know that the Torah is Spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold under sin. For what I work, I know not. For what I wish, that I do not practise, but what I hate, that I do. But if I do what I do not wish, I agree with the Torah that it is good. And now, it is no longer I that work it, but the sin dwelling in me. For I know that in me, that is in my flesh, dwells no good. For to wish is present with me, but to work the good I do not find. For the good that I wish to do, I do not do; but the evil I do not wish to do, this I practise. And if I do that which I do not wish, it is no longer I who work it, but the sin dwelling in me. I find therefore this law, that when I wish to do the good, that the evil is present with me. For I delight in the Torah of Aluhiym according to the inward man, but I see another law in my members, battling against the Torah of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.” (Romans 7:14-23)
I would encourage you to take into consideration an advice of apostle Peter on the writtings of Paul. "Wherefore beloved, seeng that ye look for such things, be deligent that ye may be found of Him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation ; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; AS ALSO IN ALL HIS EPISTLES SPEAKING IN THEM OF THESE THINGS; IN WHICH ARE SOME THINGS HARD TO BE UNDERSTOOD WHICH THEY THAT ARE UNLEARNED AND UNSTABLE WREST, AS THEY DO ALSO THE OTHER SCRIPTURES, UNTO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION."-2peter3:14-17 We do not keep Gods law because we want to gain salvation brother.No! No! Tthat not what we do. We keep the law because we have recieved Him who has not come to abolish the law and the prophets. Keeping the low is not the roots of salvation but the results thereof. The law is spiritual...

Righteousness, by law or by faith? My friend, Peter had a problem, he was caught up between law and faith. That is why Paul withstood him to his face about the gospel and the law. But tell me are you saying we must burn the books of Paul? Because all the apostles and the Spirit said we the Gentiles must not keep the law. Acts 15:5-29 They were keeping the law all their lives, before the gospel came, so yes it was hard for them (and you) to understand that Jesus came to save us all. People are still trying to save themselves with a law that could not save. And that is why the loving Father send His Son, Gal 4:3-7 so that whoever believe in Him will get saved (gospel) John 3:13-18 That is why Paul who killed those who were of the faith, (christians) could say that God never ever made a covenant with anyone but the Jews. Ephesians 2:11-22 He was there, killing the followers of Christ. The law against the gospel of Christ, try and save yourself, or getting saved by the King of kings. But tell me why would the enemy deceive people away from the gospel? 2 Cor 4:3-5 is it because they won't have a saviour anymore? Galatians 5:4 Because no man can get saved by the law, only by faith in the Lord of lords. Galatians 2:16-21 verse 21 Do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain. This is how we will get saved, read the whole chapter Ephesians 2 and here is the new commandment from the Father, not written by Paul 1 John 3:22,23
Yes the word says we must turn from the old testament to Jesus, but the enemy twisted the church away from the gospel. 2 Cor 3:7-18 and 4:3-5

My response :

Referring to the statement "AS THEY DO ALSO THE OTHER SCRIPTURES"
The Pauline Epistles were only classified as scripture much later >325AD. So the reference to the epistles of Paul in this way in 2 Peter shows that Peter did not write this or this is an insertion in the text.

Paul says: Galatians 5:4 Because no man can get saved by the law,

John says : Sin is transgression of the law. (1 John 3:4)

In order not to sin one must NOT transgress the law (ie. be obedient to God's instructions)

If one throws away the law one can never sin!?

Now

Luke 13:5
Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish

So unless one TURNS away (or shows himself willing to turn away) from LAWLESSNESS (and starts obeying His commandments and thereby stops sinning) that person will likewise perish in his/her sins.

Believing INTO Christ is clinging to Him - His Spirit & His Word ( He is the way the truth and the life) and not deviating from His path. That is, to allow Him to teach us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness - so as to be TRULY born again . We know that whoever is born of God does not sin (1 John 5:18)

Let me repeat that :
We know whoever is born of God does not transgress the law (since sin is transgression of the law).

If a person loves Him he will be obedient to Him (keep His commandments)

"for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain. "

Rather see what John says about righteousness :
1 John 3:7
Children, let no one deceive you; he who does righteousness is righteous

Look up the CORRECT translation of 2 Tim 3:16

All scripture THAT IS God breathed is useful for teaching...

ASV 1901

Any person who truly is born again will love HIs law - for His law contains instructions in righteousness. And any person who is truly born again loves righteousness.

His response :
You will sin until there is no more devil, and then through your faith and the Fathers grace, you will be changed in a twinkle of the eye. Ephesians 2

My response :

John 8: 11 Go. From now on sin no more

Jesus said to go and sin no more. So He says go and transgress from the law no more, for sin is transgression of the law.

What you are saying: People will transgress from the law until there is no more devil , And when there is no more devil then people will no longer transgress from the law. Either way there is never no law (Torah/instruction) for sin is transgression of the law (Torah). And those who love Him, love His commandments for they are LIGHT.

Paul says in Romans: and now, it is no longer I that work it, but the sin dwelling in me

That is :

and now, it is no longer I that work it, but the THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW dwelling in me

in other words in order not to have sin (transgression of the law) dwelling in you, one must seek to be cleansed and have a sincere, obedient heart that keeps His commandments (law) so that we can say we have

.. the ABIDING OF HIS TORAH dwelling in us

And this is something we can and should seek from Our Saviour.

Isa 8:20
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Last Edit: 2 years 8 months ago by Rodin.
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How would you respond? 2 years 8 months ago #12572

You seem to be saying that someone who is born again never sins again?


If that is true, then I suppose not one single person on this earth, right now, is born again.

Is there even one such person walking the earth who commits no sin of any kind?


How does that fit with
Matthew 18:21-35 ~ Peter's question, then Yehoshua's answer and the parable of the unforgiving debtor?

Or Matthew 6:12-15..?

Or 1Peter 4:8...?

Or 1John 1:8-10...?

John 8:11....does not the context reveal this to mean
'don't commit adultery again '... ?
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How would you respond? 2 years 8 months ago #12573

  • Rodin
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Something to consider:

Does a born again person choose not to sin and to live a sinless life? Yes - however that does not mean they do not miss it now and then. Sin becomes a minor blip on their calendar and then I would say it done not with grievous intent (I do not know the measure of the temptation / trial also which may provoke the sin possibly).

Now it is a not a change in the twinkling of an eye -- it requires MAJOR work in one's life to eradicate sin and a full trust in the working of the Holy Spirit in one's life to enable one to become like the Messiah - and be HOLY.

So to consign onself and say we are always sinners to be changed in the twinkling of an eye is to choose not to aim for a goal with God's help.

My responses to the yellow blocks (written by someone else - a Christian) is to say that we should LIVE in God's TORAH (Instructions) and abide in His Spirit and thereby HIDE HIS WORD (His Words are Spirit) IN US and GUIDE US so that sin does not really feature in our lives as above. We need more than just faith - we need faith and works of righteousness. This is not what Pauline teaching prescribes.
Last Edit: 2 years 8 months ago by Rodin.
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How would you respond? 2 years 8 months ago #12574

Yes, I agree with you.

That is what John is saying in
1 John.

And it is an ongoing process, a learning, cleaning up and refining work.

As we work with Him, He blesses our efforts,
Matthew 25:14-30 ~ parable of the talents.

It is hard work, but is also joyful, life giving, refreshing and light.



Matthew 11:29

WEB

"Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart; and you will find rest for your souls."




1 John 5:3

NKJV

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.







Our soul takes great delight, as it moves down the narrow road, away from the darkness and into the light of the new day




Proverbs 4:18

WEB

But the path of the righteous is like the dawning light, that shines more and more until the perfect day.




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Last Edit: 2 years 8 months ago by Christophoros.
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How would you respond? 2 years 8 months ago #12614

Regarding Peter's alleged endorsement of Pauls writings, in 2 Peter 3:15-16...

This article about the authorship of 2 Peter is fairly good:


bible.org/article/authorship-second-peter


One part that stood out to me was:


"One common example given by critics is the use of apokaluyi" in 1 Peter and parousiva  in 2 Peter to refer to the Lord’s coming. However, this is not uncommon. Paul uses these terms on separate occasions when writing 1 Corinthians and 2 Thessalonians."

I wonder whether an analysis has been done, to see if Paul could be the author of 2 Peter...

Regardless of who wrote it and why,
3:15-16
does seem to stick out like a sore thumb, as being an addition, to give credibility to Pauls writings...

And why would this be allowed to be in the Bible, the book that has been given to the whole world by our Creator?

Surely it is a test in the same way that Pauls writings and perhaps other parts are.

The idea being, just because Peter says it, do His sheep listen to the voice of another, or to their Shepherds' voice only?
~ John 10


I get an image along the lines of Job 1 and 2... I imagine satan saying something like
'You said your sheep will only listen to your voice. So prove it by allowing someone else's voice to be in the Bible, which is accepted by your sheep as being Your Word, and see how they follow him instead'..

Regarding this, consider


Luke 22:31

NLT

"Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift each of you like wheat."

And, of course, Deuteronomy 13


Our Creator has given us the Bible.
He has also given each of us a conscience, that is with us every moment of our lives.

It is the conscience where He speaks to us through His Spirit.
And He has given us the gift of free will, to choose whether to listen to, and act in harmony with it, or not

Genesis 3
Isaiah 30



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Last Edit: 2 years 8 months ago by Christophoros.
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How would you respond? 2 years 7 months ago #12789

  • RhodaRose
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(I am playing "catch-up" so I didn't thoroughly and thoughtfully read and consider every post on this thread)

Rodin wrote:
“…reckon the patience of our Master as deliverance, as also our beloved brother Sha’ul/Paul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given to him, as also in all his letters, speaking in them concerning these matters, in which some are hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the other Scriptures. You, then, beloved ones, being forewarned, watch, lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with THE DELUSION OF THE LAWLESS, but grow in the favour and knowledge of our Master and Saviour Yahushua Messiah. To Him be the esteem both now and to a day that abides. Amĕin.” (2 Peter/Kefa - Bet 3:15-18)

He missed something that should be considered at the beginning of these verses: (he used another translation rather than KJV)
2 Peter 3:
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in Grace, and in the Knowledge of our Lord and Saviour YAHshua Messiah. To him be Glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Taking Strong's Concordance along with the KJV Bible check this out:
"longsuffering"
Romans 9:
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called ...
(Ck out Deut 13:3)

Consider that along with this:
Revelations 6:
1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow(mouth/words - but no arrows to kill); and a crown (wisdom) was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

THIS is the unleashing of Saul/Paul !!
Ck out edify and edification in Saul/Paul's letters and see he was sent to EDIFY NOT KILL !!
(I know some will not take the time to ck this out so I will put a couple here:)
2 Cor 10:
8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:
2 Cor 14:
10 Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction.

Satan has placed us "between a Rock and a hard place" making us choose between Peter and Saul/Paul because of these verses.
Choose and choose Wisely - Peter WAS an Original Apostle and Saul/Paul wasn't ... seems like an easy choice to me ... DO NOT throw out the writing of Peter for ANY reason ... satan has put such thoughts in our heads ONLY BEAUSE there is SO MUCH Truth in Peter's letters that satan does NOT want us to see :(

I believe this was alluded to here:
John 21:
18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
Go to His Word and see how King David felt and talked about King Saul - even after his death King David mentions that he would not speak or act against YHWH's Anointed ... after all the nasty stuff King Saul did to (KING) David :( King Saul did what he did IN the Plans of YHWH and Saul/Paul is doing the same ... as Judas did, in the Plans of YHWH ;) Saul/Paul is there to Prove Us through edification but he was not sent to destroy/kill Us who have His Holy Spirit as Our Teacher :) (I knew there was a reason I could not put him down too much ... now I know why - I know his purpose!! and it is all in the Plan of YHWH)

There is much more on this I could write but I don't want to lose your attention in many "words" :P

Blessings to you and yours,
Shalom, RhodaRose

PS
I nicknamed myself Rhoda because I was drawn to her (Acts 12:13-16) How she was SO Happy when she heard Peter at the gate that she DID NOT open it to him but ran to tell others he was there ! I have come to find that is my Mission - telling others "Peter is at the Gate ... "
PSS Could that be your Ear Gate ... ?
Last Edit: 2 years 7 months ago by RhodaRose. Reason: added PSS
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