Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC: ADDRESSING THE PAULINE CHRISTIAN

ADDRESSING THE PAULINE CHRISTIAN 2 years 3 months ago #12987

  • Epiphanus
  • Epiphanus's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Posts: 14
  • Thank you received: 2
*WAS PAUL A JEW? WAS HE EDUCATED BY RABBI'S? WAS PAUL WHO WE THINK HE WAS?* :unsure:

I would love to hear what our Jewish brethren think of the "reality of Paul", does he fit into the mould of someone educated by Rabbi's in the Tanakh, for instance? Does his knowledge of Scripture reflect Jewishness, does he display with integrity that he was a Pharisee, for instance? All else are free to comment, though! :woohoo:

Please read my post below, but also follow the links. There are documents that can be downloaded and perhaps a read through those may also offer insights or pose further questions.

Here goes:

*ADDRESSING THE PAULINE CHRISTIAN*

Modern Christians are quick to claim that they should not be under the law, yet they are as quick to turn Paul's writings into absolute law, subjecting others to such in a most regimental fashion. I sometimes stand astonished at the fierce passion with which "what Paul wrote" gets the upper hand in discussing Christian faith. Easily, these Christians take away from the Word of God by more or less ONLY accepting Paul's teachings and ONLY living by that.

*It really is okay to read Paul and to take his advice but not at the cost of the rest of His Word, nor should he effectively become more prominent than Jesus.*

Jesus never even hinted at the Old Testament being revoked. Instead, He said that heaven and earth will pass but that not a single iota or tittle would ever be taken away.

In my opinion, if we only follow Paul, then we are idol worshippers. Then we are serving Paul as a substitute of Jesus, possibly an unforgivable sin. Take from Paul what is good but never make his teachings to be the absolute, only truth. Never let Paul Only dictate who you are in Christ. Paul was a fierce, argumentative man and, by his own admission, a man of rude speech as we even see how easily he cursed and condemned others. (Leading by example??)

I have long ago decided to follow Jesus, who was sufficiently revealed in the Old Testament and Gospels; one really does not need further blogging to come to faith in Him. The Old Testament (Tanakh) is where our Father Jesus and His character gets revealed. Modern Christianity does not accept the rough side of our Lord as they were conditioned by Paul.

Worship Yahshua aka Jesus. His Hebrew name means "Yah Saves." Really, I do not need Paul from salvation as I think that my Saviour had done a perfect job in redeeming me. Paul fiercely opposed Peter and others; he was not a man of peace, not one who forgave but one who condemned.

Who is your saviour: Jesus or Paul?

*A further note*
Regarding the writings of Paul. there is too much of a grey area in translation works, too many direct conflict with the Old Testament because Paul wasn’t always Paul, to begin with. Some of his epistles were written by others under his name a century or two after his death. When something does not align with the given Word of God, I have reason to play it safe and stay with what I know is good. Regarding the New Testament, too many additions and deletions by translators, who had twisted the original meaning. We cannot build our doctrine on the New Testament alone, ever, as it surely lacks the integrity required. As a former internal auditor who had done forensic audits, following sound auditing principles, a fair share of the New Testament would flunk the test and be considered as fraud. If you research the history of translation, you will discover the flaws in both the texts used and the methods applied.

Finally, both Jesus and Paul cursed others. What shall we say about that? Do as we say or do as we do? There is more to the Truth than a few verses written by either Paul or his impostors. Paul was not God yet Christians regard his writings as absolute, build their doctrine on his work and delete the rest of His Word by not following it. Ultimately, we are to follow His given Word, as mentioned in 2 Timothy, which was the Tanakh or Old Testament, as at the time Paul wrote that to Timothy, the New Testament did not even exist. When Bible translators became creative and translated according to how they saw things, the product eventually came in conflict with the Tanakh, the latter we know is much more reliable and accurate.

The NT was translated so badly that mention of eunuchs serving in His Temple appeared, despite Deuteronomy 23! The eunuch from Egypt riding on the wagon when Philip met him…..the accurate translation would be “court servant” and “believer”, same as when Jesus mentioned the believers but English Bibles say “eunuchs.” It warps the message of the Word when translators give different meanings than the original implied. The rope that would have found it difficult to pass through the eye of a needle, ultimately became a camel. It is because translators did not understand the idiomatic Aramaic and translated as if it were literal Hebrew.

Any Scripture opposing the teaching of the Pentateuch, for instance, should be treated with caution. After all, erroneous translation of the word “believer” or “servant” into “eunuch” even lead the LGBT community to justify their sin through the words of Jesus, which is blasphemous. We know the nature of many monks who are sexual perverts, so this translation fraud has the smell of intentional change of meaning and not something that had happened by honest mistake.

Do not base your entire doctrine on just a part of what you see in your Bible but be sure to know the character of our Father intimately by having a solid foundation of knowledge of the Old Testament, which is the only place where His character as Father is revealed. Anything that goes against His character is just that: *out of character.*

www.problemswithpaul.com/Apostle_Paul.html

www.problemswithpaul.com/documents_reading.html

www.problemswithpaul.com/documents/What_...roughout_History.pdf

#paul
The administrator has disabled public write access.

ADDRESSING THE PAULINE CHRISTIAN 2 years 3 months ago #12995

  • RhodaRose
  • RhodaRose's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Posts: 850
  • Thank you received: 71
WARNING -
TIME IS SHORT -
GO DIRECTLY TO THE LAST OF MESSAGE AND READ _ NOW !! --> --> -->

***********************************************************************************************
Epiphanus wrote:
*WAS PAUL A JEW? WAS HE EDUCATED BY RABBI'S? WAS PAUL WHO WE THINK HE WAS?* :unsure:

I would love to hear what our Jewish brethren think of the "reality of Paul", does he fit into the mould of someone educated by Rabbi's in the Tanakh, for instance? Does his knowledge of Scripture reflect Jewishness, does he display with integrity that he was a Pharisee, for instance? All else are free to comment, though! :woohoo:

Please read my post below, but also follow the links. There are documents that can be downloaded and perhaps a read through those may also offer insights or pose further questions.

First of all: Saul/Paul (referred to afterward as s/p) was NOT a "Jew" (Judah) - he was a Benjaminite ... his education ? who knows ? but I do know that satan/lucifer was very wise also ...

Here goes:

*ADDRESSING THE PAULINE CHRISTIAN*

Modern Christians are quick to claim that they should not be under the law, yet they are as quick to turn Paul's writings into absolute law, subjecting others to such in a most regimental fashion. I sometimes stand astonished at the fierce passion with which "what Paul wrote" gets the upper hand in discussing Christian faith. Easily, these Christians take away from the Word of God by more or less ONLY accepting Paul's teachings and ONLY living by that.

*** Second of all: from here on, understand, that "christians" refers to "followers of s/p ... so you may be speaking to the wrong group (?) ... "We" Love His "law"/Instruction ... and YES christians seem to ONLY accept s/p's teachings ...

*It really is okay to read Paul and to take his advice but not at the cost of the rest of His Word, nor should he effectively become more prominent than Jesus.*

*** No, THIS is Not "okay" ... and "We" do NOT take his advise ... he is NOT more "proinent than Hoshea for "Us" ...

Jesus never even hinted at the Old Testament being revoked. Instead, He said that heaven and earth will pass but that not a single iota or tittle would ever be taken away.

*** CORRECT :)

In my opinion, if we only follow Paul, then we are idol worshippers. Then we are serving Paul as a substitute of Jesus, possibly an unforgivable sin. Take from Paul what is good but never make his teachings to be the absolute, only truth. Never let Paul Only dictate who you are in Christ. Paul was a fierce, argumentative man and, by his own admission, a man of rude speech as we even see how easily he cursed and condemned others. (Leading by example??)

*** Your opinion, here, is Correct :)

I have long ago decided to follow Jesus, who was sufficiently revealed in the Old Testament and Gospels; one really does not need further blogging to come to faith in Him. The Old Testament (Tanakh) is where our Father Jesus and His character gets revealed. Modern Christianity does not accept the rough side of our Lord as they were conditioned by Paul.

*** Good Decision !! ... and Good Reasons :) ... "We" accept Hoshea's Zeal and Chutzpah :)

Worship Yahshua aka Jesus. His Hebrew name means "Yah Saves." Really, I do not need Paul from salvation as I think that my Saviour had done a perfect job in redeeming me. Paul fiercely opposed Peter and others; he was not a man of peace, not one who forgave but one who condemned.

*** no, aka Hoshea .... Yes, THIS IS what It means ... and the reason you are Correct in :)

Who is your saviour: Jesus or Paul?

***Duh ? !! :dry: ...HOSHEA ;)

*A further note*
Regarding the writings of Paul. there is too much of a grey area in translation works, too many direct conflict with the Old Testament because Paul wasn’t always Paul, to begin with. Some of his epistles were written by others under his name a century or two after his death. When something does not align with the given Word of God, I have reason to play it safe and stay with what I know is good. Regarding the New Testament, too many additions and deletions by translators, who had twisted the original meaning. We cannot build our doctrine on the New Testament alone, ever, as it surely lacks the integrity required. As a former internal auditor who had done forensic audits, following sound auditing principles, a fair share of the New Testament would flunk the test and be considered as fraud. If you research the history of translation, you will discover the flaws in both the texts used and the methods applied.

*** You say " ... because Paul wasn’t always Paul, to begin with. ... " and for a Good reason - he was "modeled after" King Saul - King Saul WAS Our EXAMple ... may I say : "wishy-washy" ... :) :(
Keep "playing it safe" !! :) ... as of the reason you say - you are correct BUT THIS is Where His Holy Spirit :kiss: as Our Teacher comes in ... She :kiss: "can make a Meal out of a "mess" ... ;)

Finally, both Jesus and Paul cursed others. What shall we say about that? Do as we say or do as we do? There is more to the Truth than a few verses written by either Paul or his impostors. Paul was not God yet Christians regard his writings as absolute, build their doctrine on his work and delete the rest of His Word by not following it. Ultimately, we are to follow His given Word, as mentioned in 2 Timothy, which was the Tanakh or Old Testament, as at the time Paul wrote that to Timothy, the New Testament did not even exist. When Bible translators became creative and translated according to how they saw things, the product eventually came in conflict with the Tanakh, the latter we know is much more reliable and accurate.

*** "WE" do NOT "regard his writings as absolute, build "Our" doctrine on his work or delete the rest of His Word by not following it." ... The rest you say is correct ... :)

The NT was translated so badly that mention of eunuchs serving in His Temple appeared, despite Deuteronomy 23! The eunuch from Egypt riding on the wagon when Philip met him…..the accurate translation would be “court servant” and “believer”, same as when Jesus mentioned the believers but English Bibles say “eunuchs.” It warps the message of the Word when translators give different meanings than the original implied. The rope that would have found it difficult to pass through the eye of a needle, ultimately became a camel. It is because translators did not understand the idiomatic Aramaic and translated as if it were literal Hebrew.

*** that is why " I (and many Others ) " ... "study to show Ourselves Approved" ... and use the KLV Word Bible with a Strong's Concordance and a Bible Dictionary at our sides ...

Any Scripture opposing the teaching of the Pentateuch, for instance, should be treated with caution. After all, erroneous translation of the word “believer” or “servant” into “eunuch” even lead the LGBT community to justify their sin through the words of Jesus, which is blasphemous. We know the nature of many monks who are sexual perverts, so this translation fraud has the smell of intentional change of meaning and not something that had happened by honest mistake.

*** again, " I " ( and many Others ) use Only the KJV Word Bible :)

Do not base your entire doctrine on just a part of what you see in your Bible but be sure to know the character of our Father intimately by having a solid foundation of knowledge of the Old Testament, which is the only place where His character as Father is revealed. Anything that goes against His character is just that: *out of character.*

*** Correct !! :)

www.problemswithpaul.com/Apostle_Paul.html

www.problemswithpaul.com/documents_reading.html

www.problemswithpaul.com/documents/What_...roughout_History.pdf

#paul

*** didn't "go there" because , again, man's opinions ... don't want to clutter my mind with too much of "other man's options" because :
#1 Reason : YHWH's Holy Spirit IS My Teacher :kiss:

#2 Reason (s) :

Exodus 36:
4 And all the Wise men, that wrought all the work of the sanctuary, came every man from his work which they made;
5 And they spake unto Moses, saying, " The people bring much more than enough for the service of the work, which the Lord commanded to make."
6 And Moses gave commandment, and they caused it to be proclaimed throughout the camp, saying, " Let neither man nor woman make any more work for the offering of the sanctuary." ... So the people were restrained from bringing.

Numbers 16:
And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the Lord?
4 And when Moses heard it, he fell upon his face:
5 And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the Lord will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.
6 This do; Take you censers, Korah, and all his company;
7 And put fire therein, and put incense in them before the Lord to morrow: and it shall be that the man whom the Lord doth choose, he shall be holy: ye take too much upon you, ye sons of Levi.
8 And Moses said unto Korah, Hear, I pray you, ye sons of Levi:
9 Seemeth it but a small thing unto you, that the God of Israel hath separated you from the congregation of Israel, to bring you near to himself to do the service of the tabernacle of the Lord, and to stand before the congregation to minister unto them?
10 And he hath brought thee near to him, and all thy brethren the sons of Levi with thee: and seek ye the priesthood also?
11 For which cause both thou and all thy company are gathered together against the Lord: and what is Aaron, that ye murmur against him?
12 And Moses sent to call Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab: which said, We will not come up:
13 Is it a small thing that thou hast brought us up out of a land that floweth with milk and honey, to kill us in the wilderness, except thou make thyself altogether a prince over us?
14 Moreover thou hast not brought us into a land that floweth with milk and honey, or given us inheritance of fields and vineyards: wilt thou put out the eyes of these men? we will not come up.
15 And Moses was very wroth, and said unto the Lord, Respect not thou their offering: I have not taken one ass from them, neither have I hurt one of them.
16 And Moses said unto Korah, Be thou and all thy company before the Lord, thou, and they, and Aaron, to morrow:
17 And take every man his censer, and put incense in them, and bring ye before the Lord every man his censer, two hundred and fifty censers; thou also, and Aaron, each of you his censer.
18 And they took every man his censer, and put fire in them, and laid incense thereon, and stood in the door of the tabernacle of the congregation with Moses and Aaron.
19 And Korah gathered all the congregation against them unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: and the glory of the Lord appeared unto all the congregation.
20 And the Lord spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
21 Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.
22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?
23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
24 Speak unto the congregation, saying, Get you up from about the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram.
25 And Moses rose up and went unto Dathan and Abiram; and the elders of Israel followed him.
26 And he spake unto the congregation, saying, Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of their's, lest ye be consumed in all their sins.
27 So they gat up from the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, on every side: and Dathan and Abiram came out, and stood in the door of their tents, and their wives, and their sons, and their little children.
28 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the Lord hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.
29 If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the Lord hath not sent me.
30 But if the Lord make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the Lord.
31 And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them:
32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.
33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.
34 And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also.
35 And there came out a fire from the Lord, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.
36 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
37 Speak unto Eleazar the son of Aaron the priest, that he take up the censers out of the burning, and scatter thou the fire yonder; for they are hallowed.
38 The censers of these sinners against their own souls, let them make them broad plates for a covering of the altar: for they offered them before the Lord, therefore they are hallowed: and they shall be a sign unto the children of Israel.
39 And Eleazar the priest took the brasen censers, wherewith they that were burnt had offered; and they were made broad plates for a covering of the altar:
40 To be a memorial unto the children of Israel, that no stranger, which is not of the seed of Aaron, come near to offer incense before the Lord; that he be not as Korah, and as his company: as the Lord said to him by the hand of Moses.
41 But on the morrow all the congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron, saying, Ye have killed the people of the Lord.
42 And it came to pass, when the congregation was gathered against Moses and against Aaron, that they looked toward the tabernacle of the congregation: and, behold, the cloud covered it, and the glory of the Lord appeared.
43 And Moses and Aaron came before the tabernacle of the congregation.
44 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
45 Get you up from among this congregation,
that I may consume them as in a moment.
And they fell upon their faces.


46 And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense,
and go quickly unto the congregation,
and make an atonement for them:
for there is wrath gone out from the Lord;
the plague is begun... --> --> --> read on --> --> -->


IF THAT ISN'T OUR DAY OF ATONEMENT - I DON"T KNOW WHAT IS ...

thurs sun-down until fri sun-down ... a complete 24 hours ... DO IT !! NOW !!!


I DID NOTKNOW that THIS was leading here --> --> -->
...but IT DID ... SO ... (YHWH Works in Mysterious Ways - SO LISTEN UP !! )

... and I end this (not finishing what I started ... to get on my Face --> --> -->


rhoda
Last Edit: 2 years 3 months ago by RhodaRose. Reason: WARNING !!!
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Epiphanus

ADDRESSING THE PAULINE CHRISTIAN 2 years 3 months ago #12998

  • Epiphanus
  • Epiphanus's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Posts: 14
  • Thank you received: 2
The title is "Addressing the Pauline Christian."

It could be interesting reading for others but this really is aimed at the disciples of Paul who negate the rest of the Bible. The title says who the audience should be and nobody should be taking this personal, except for Pauline Christians, who may become defensive.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

ADDRESSING THE PAULINE CHRISTIAN 2 years 3 months ago #13019

  • yedidiah
  • yedidiah's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Posts: 197
  • Thank you received: 6
Hi Epiphanus,

As a jewish follower of the Master Yehshua, I will answer your questions. Also I had the opportunity to listen to and study with the modern pharisees (orthodox rabbis) in paris, jerusalem;

Well Paul's writings do not reveal a lack of understanding pharisaic concepts or logic in Paul; on the contrary we can see his style as in phase with their rhetorical methods; of course his ideas and conclusions would shock a rabbi, but the arguments are logically built up from the Torah's scriptures. Paul is also in phase with their love for paraboles (Romans 7, Galatians...) as the Master was .

You say that Yehshua did not ever hint that the Torah was revoked; but yes he did: I will just give you two examples : he said divorce was not permitted (except i, case of adultery), and this contradicts the Torah of Moses; he also said that we should not put new wine into old recipients; this for me is a clear hint at the fact that the New Covenant will not make use of the Old Covenant rules and decrees, especially the ritualistic mitzvot.
Well this is true that we have Matthew 5:17... but Yehshua himself did not follow the Law, when for instance he did not want the adulterous womanbe stoned as the Law demands. this alone proves that these verses in Matthew are not Yehshua's sayings, but were written later by jewish believers in him who remained zealous for the torah.
Not only the epistles of Paul were written long after the Cross !!

And it is the same for the Torah , which is rather the Torah of Ezra , not of Moshe !

yedidiah.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

ADDRESSING THE PAULINE CHRISTIAN 2 years 3 months ago #13021

  • RhodaRose
  • RhodaRose's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Posts: 850
  • Thank you received: 71
Yedidiah.wrote:
You (Epiphanus) say that Yehshua did not ever hint that the Torah was revoked; but yes he did: I will just give you two examples : he said divorce was not permitted (except i, case of adultery), and this contradicts the Torah of Moses; he also said that we should not put new wine into old recipients; this for me is a clear hint at the fact that the New Covenant will not make use of the Old Covenant rules and decrees, especially the ritualistic mitzvot.
Well this is true that we have Matthew 5:17... but Yehshua himself did not follow the Law, when for instance he did not want the adulterous woman be stoned as the Law demands. this alone proves that these verses in Matthew are not Yehshua's sayings, but were written later by jewish believers in him who remained zealous for the torah.


You have pointed to some interesting things in your post.

"... this contradicts the Torah of Moses ... " and " ... the New Covenant will not make use of the Old Covenant rules and decrees, especially the ritualistic mitzvot ... " and you are Right on Both counts :)

First Understand the word "Covenant" ... It Is a Marriage Contract !! ;)

Before the 10 Commandments were Given in Exodus 20 there was an oath given by Israel to YHWH ... "We will do all that You Say ... "
(and as a side-note: Remember just afterwards Israel pleaded with Moses that YHWH not Speak directly to them anymore ... :( )
Anyway - back to the Covenant/Marriage Contract Given from YHWH to Israel ... YHWH Proposed ... Israel Accepted ... and in their "law" they were as good as Wed.

Now for the Good News/Gospel of Hoshea Messiah :) :cheer: :laugh:

Hoshea Gave us His Marriage Contract - and you are So Right - It Is NOT the same "Contract" ... Hoshea expects different things from His Bride-to-Be than YHWH expected from His Bride-to-Be ... which is Legal by their "laws" - to each Their Own contract !! :) and IF we Accept His Contract we Will Become His Betrothed AND As Good As Married !! :cheer:

Yes, The Son took some Things from His Father's Contract but most He condensed into fewer Words !! :)
Hoshea Expects a Lot from us but has eliminated the endless "laws"/instructions and summed it up In Love for our God, YHWH - and Love for our Brothers and Sisters - who are Also the children of The Father ... SELAH ;)

This IS WHERE we "get the Mind of Messiah" ...
"Those who Worship Me MUST Worship IN SPIRIT and IN TRUTH !!" ... SELAH ;)
"for This IS the Will of The Father ... " SELAH ;)

Hoshea Messiah has brought Better Things for us -
... in which the Angels of Heaven - His Kingdom - wonder at and are "envious" of us :huh: :ohmy: :cheer: :laugh:

This Excites ME to write this and I hope you "get it" and it Excites you Also ... :silly:

SELAH :kiss: ... :dry: :huh: :ohmy: :unsure: :S :pinch: :blink: :silly: :) :cheer: :laugh: ... B)
... Turned Really Bright for you didn't it ?!! B) :kiss:

Love to All of Father's Children,
-and Fathers Wife, Israel
-and Hoshea Messiah's Beloved and Betrothed Called and Chosen :)

Be Ready with Your Lights burning and Watching and Waiting in Hope of Your Desired End ... Jerm 29:11 :)
He IS Coming ... Even AT the Door ... HalleluhYAH :) :cheer: :laugh:

:) I Love ... because He First Loved ME ;) ... ( our First Love - [ -go back- [/b] - - >- - > r-e-T-U-R-N

(((and NEED I tell you AGAIN to Read around the verses I give to you )))

Isaiah 30:21
And thine Ears shall Hear a Word behind thee, saying,
" This is the Way,- Walk Ye IN IT-, - when ... ye turn to the right hand, ...and... - when ... ye turn to the left. SELAH !! ;)

((( go and SEE what that means ... )))

again, Love to you and yours , As Always, RhodaRose
Last Edit: 2 years 3 months ago by RhodaRose. Reason: clarity
The administrator has disabled public write access.